God’s Brilliant Strategy

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Yes, I mean, if I wanted to reach a maximum number of people to bring across my divine message, I would also, as the wise and all knowing god, choose a bunch of sheep and goat herders in the middle of nowhere and west shit river to do so.

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  1. #1 by silenceofmind on August 7, 2014 - 7:46 PM

    Robin,

    Lenin rejected Western Civilization.

    He was an atheist who introduced mass murder and terror to mankind.

    • #2 by popreflection on August 7, 2014 - 7:57 PM

      ….that had nothing to do with his atheism. This has already been discussed (see other responses and link) and is not up for debate or a matter of personal opinion. Lenin’s and Stalin’s atrocities were not a function of their atheism. Once again, you are engaging in sophistry by drawing false analogies.

      • #3 by silenceofmind on August 7, 2014 - 9:01 PM

        Pop,

        Lenin said, “Atheism is necessary for the Communist program.”

        So whatever you think you discussed, was just more atheist lies.

        Atheism is a murderous, deadly plague upon the Earth.

    • #4 by popreflection on August 8, 2014 - 8:22 AM

      Atheism is a plague on the Earth? Yes, I can just see, looking around, how much atheists have been in charge of doing horrible things to each other in the name of a non existing entity, as opposed to peace loving folks who thrown cotton candy at each other in the name of their god. See Gaza. Uh-huh.

      That said, let me educate you on the issue of communism and atheism and conflating the both:

      Unlike religion/Christianity where belief in a god is the most central aspect of the faith – without it you cannot go on, the central tenet of communism (which, by the way is not a faith) is not just rejection of god as the first step toward being communist. Through the study of religion, faith and other such things, Marx came to see the mechanisms of exploit from a larger framework. However, no communist entity has required people to pledge an allegiance to atheism before moving forward. That is absurd.

      Also, atheism without communism is possible – they don’t belong together and neither does one satisfy the requirements of the other. To equate marxism with atheism and vice versa is cold war propaganda.

      Communism is a socioeconomic system structured upon common ownership of the means of production. It is centered on that very concept and rejecting religion in so far as the Marxist considers it the opium of the people. Religion promotes passive acceptance of suffering on Earth in the hope of eternal reward. In other words, the communist thinks while you are busy worshipping your invisible sky god and putting up with exploitation on Earth in anticipation of heavenly reward, you are being fucked over by the industrialist capitalist pig over there.

      Communism itself, on a side note, never supported or even endorsed mass murder and dictatorships or tyranny. That was Stalin’s thing, not atheism’s or even communism’s central tenet. Unlike the Bible that talks about what to do with non believers all the time and where god himself encourages rape and murder and commits genocide all the time to punish people.

      Marx opposed religion in the hopes that it never again finds power over people’s minds through its deception and promotion of fear from the mystical forces of God.

      He argued that religious belief had been invented as a reaction against the suffering and injustice of the world. In Marx’s view, the poor and oppressed were the original creators of religion, and they used it as a way to reassure themselves that they would have a better life in the future, after death. Thus, it served as a kind of “opium,” or a way to escape the harsh realities of the world.

      “Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.” – Marx

      Marx came to see that religion was determined by the economic superstructure and therefore he believed abolishing class society would lead to an end to religion.

      And he is right. I mean if it wasn’t for religion, most people would not put up with the crap they are putting up with these days. If it wasn;t for the belief of a reward in another life, most people would not be able to get out of bed due to the depressing nature of their existence; the injustices (ties in with existential uncertainty).

      I think it was Napoleon who said that without religion the poor would murder the rich or something in that regard.

      That Stalin then became a dictator was not a function of him philosophically sharing Marx’s ideals in any way. he wasn’t even a real communist. He was a power-hungry sociopath setting the stage for a worldview that used communism to oppress people.

      Considerations of faith influenced Marx’s initial thinking and approach of forming his philosophy, but once people like Lenin and Stalin took over, that was never a consideration again. At that point churches were banned not on philosophical grounds but because the communist state no longer wanted to deal with the competition of the institutions of religion so that it can concentrate power. And you cannot concentrate power when the church is meddling in and telling people to basically put up with the exploitation because there is a better tomorrow under the Lord.

      Not to mention that Jesus was a socialist!! he constantly advocated for helping the poor and needy and what is that about the camel through the eye of the needle and rich man making it to heaven? That wasn’t an allegory you know.

      At any rate, to conflate atheism with communism in the same way you conflate the actions of religious people with their holy books, is fallacious. Not to mention that atheists are the most peaceful, least violent entities in the world.

      Name me one piece of atheist drafted or inspired legislation and especially one that has been harmful or detrimental to peoples. I doubt you will find one.

      I have thousands of years or oppression, mistreatment and murder at the hands of the religious in the name of god to show you – what you got on the atheists? Just Stalin? Lenin? False analogies?

      The Nordic/Scandinavian nations are some of the least religious and last I looked they were doing hella better than nations where people call themselves religious and who say that god and faith guide them. Oh the irony.

      Looks to me like you are holding on to straws to make the case for what? That religion is not bad after all? That it is misunderstood? That atheism is just as bad? Are you that desperate to believe in a higher power, is the urge to believe that strong, that you are willing to muddy the waters and engage in this kind of false reasoning and draw false equivalencies? Is the world such a horrible place and life so unbearable without a god that you are willing to forgo reason in all its manifestations to desperately make the case for religion being amazing? I just don’t get it. I cannot imagine my need to believe in the invisible be so strong that I am willing to stick my head in the sand for it.

      • #5 by silenceofmind on August 8, 2014 - 8:40 AM

        Pop,

        Every single claim you made in your last comment was a false claim.

        Only atheists are so consistently and willfully wrong about almost everything.

        Atheists do that routinely because otherwise, atheism just doesn’t work out.

        The atheist mass murders are a matter of history.

        That those atheist mass murdering regimes work to brutally annihilate any belief in God is something that goes on everyday.

        It was Vladimir Lenin who said, “Atheism is necessary for the Communist program,” not I.

        Marxist philosophy, like atheism is wrong about everything and has proven itself so everywhere and every when it has been tried.

        That’s why the two go together so well.

        • #6 by popreflection on August 8, 2014 - 9:41 AM

          Those regimes did not work to annihilate any belief in God, they worked to oppress people and steal their money, accumulating power and wealth.

          At any rate, the responses I gave you are not my personal opinion, but historic and sociological facts. That you do not understand communism, Marx’s teachings and philosophy as well as the dynamics of the dictatorships in question, is your problem, not mine. In fact, I doubt you either read what I wrote or that you have ever actual read anything Marx wrote. or Stalin.

          “What you are saying is totally wrong because I say so” is not a valid argument or retort. In fact, your personal opinions on matters that are indisputable historically and confirmed by the epistemic community are irrelevant. You are merely regurgitating cold war, Right-wing propaganda that has no basis in reality.

          Since you dabble in the idiotic and fictional, I suggest you go trolling elsewhere. I have wasted a lot of time trying to explain things and have a meaningful conversation, just to have you come back regurgitating tea party mumbo jumbo and other similar unfounded garbage.

          You can believe in Hobbits as your savior, creator and Messiah as far as I am concerned . But the moment your religion and belief in whoever is affecting others, and detrimentally so, that is where an athesit will step in to yank the idiocy and disillusion out of you. And yes, atheists can be assholes too. No one said that being an atheist is the end-all, be-all of all enlightenment or perfection. Atheism is, however, a necessary first step in the right direction; in the direction of intellectual emancipation. That said, at least atheists do not blame their assholishness on an even bigger asshole in the sky.

          • #7 by silenceofmind on August 8, 2014 - 9:46 AM

            Pop,

            What you wrote is Communist-atheist propaganda, not the facts.

            Communist atheists regimes are not only infamous for the greatest mass murders in history but they are also famous for re-writing history so that it conforms to the “Communist program.”

            Atheism is all about powering the leftist (re: Marxist) agenda.

            That’s why atheists push all the major hoaxes like global warming, ObamaCare, over population, alternative energy, social justice.

            Those are just mediums of atheist oppression.

        • #8 by popreflection on August 8, 2014 - 10:54 AM

          LOL. Umm…ok. I don’t even know what to say. Just insert gales of mirthless, contemptuous laughter, peppered throughout with snarling profanity.

  2. #9 by robinobishop on August 5, 2014 - 8:51 AM

    You asserted quite broadly that Christianity has been the mother of all violence in the world where it identified itself through Christ as the antithesis to violence. You fail in debate unless you create flaccid opinions. calling them facts. Knowing this for yourself, you retreat. You are indoctrinated, unwilling to think critically from known fact.

    • #10 by popreflection on August 5, 2014 - 9:20 AM

      I did not say that Christianity is the mother of all evil. I have said that religion, including Christianity, is harmful because since its inception people have used it to indict, judge, oppress, torture and murder one another. And they do to this date. Not just Christianity, but all religions, including Islam and judaism.

      I also pointed out that I only wish people who call themselves Christian actually acted Christ like. Which is not to say that simply because jesus said a few words about love and generosity, the Bible is not filled with genocide, murder, the order to unquestionable obey some abusive, narcissistic, genocidal god and a host of other childish, idiotic, fairy tale like assertions borne out of ignorance and fear.

      And funny that someone who believes in an invisible sky god who impregnated a virgin teen girl, someone who believes that a man came back from the dead, healed the sick with a touch of a hand, turned water into wine and all that other Biblical fairy tale mumbo jumbo that a fifth grader could disprove would accuse a skeptic of being…ahem…indoctrinated and “unwilling to think critically from known fact.” LOL. All the mirthless laughter here to you, peppered throughout with snarling profanity. I have to admit, you religious folks are experts in the art of sophistry, projection and hypocrisy. That quality I do ascribe to you.

      • #11 by robinobishop on August 6, 2014 - 10:05 PM

        I thought you weren’t going to repeat yourself. This has got to be a massive copy/paste.

  3. #12 by robinobishop on August 4, 2014 - 10:27 PM

    When I assert that Christ stated you would and have reason to be offended / confused, that his presence would CREATE strife not peace. You state: “He meant that in the context of the ruling powers at the time and hypocrites at the temples who prayed but did not treat their fellow human beings right etc. Sorry, it is his little gift to You as seen in John 12 below.
    You have a right to be disturbed about all religion. However, when it comes to having facts, you cannot create your own Christian facts to support your instabilities. War of the mind is what he brings to you.
    Luke Chapter 12
    51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
    52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
    53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
    Now, when it comes to murdering the most (750,000) innocent….turn to the atheist Joseph STALIN.

    • #13 by popreflection on August 4, 2014 - 11:41 PM

      Well you are wrong on the first point about why Christ said people would be offended. And at any rate, I am not even gonna debate that with you, the facts speak for themselves. I also don’t understand what that has to do with legitimate criticism of religion and Christianity. You cant tell people who bring forth valid criticism of not only the Bible but of religion in general, “well, christ said you would be offended” as if that had anything to do with that criticism or as if it was about being offended.

      As to your Stalin strawman: that’s been discussed on this and another thread, as well as posts on here extensively. I am not going to repeat myself.

      https://popreflection.wordpress.com/2014/04/06/today-in-conversations-with-theists/

      • #14 by robinobishop on August 5, 2014 - 8:43 AM

        So I am “wrong” using your invented “facts” and you won’t debate it. You have been doing a lot of that.

        • #15 by popreflection on August 5, 2014 - 9:27 AM

          What invented facts? Engaging in sophistry is not facts or debating in anything. Employing strawmen is not bringing forth facts. If you cant or wont understand that legitimate criticism of religion and Christianity has nothing to do with being offended, and that a book of fiction is not proof that the fictitious entity you worship is real, I cannot help you. Arguing with someone who believes in an invisible sky god is like administering medicine to the dead. What’s the point? Now run along.

          • #16 by robinobishop on August 6, 2014 - 10:04 PM

            Well, you and Lenin have a cordial conversation then.

  4. #17 by silenceofmind on August 2, 2014 - 1:41 PM

    The seed that God planted in an ancient nomadic tribe called the Hebrews grew into Western Civilization, the greatest, most prosperous, most just, most technically advanced civilization in human history.

    • #18 by popreflection on August 2, 2014 - 2:07 PM

      Great Western Civilizations huh? Manifest Destiny huh? Do you even realize how truly offensive such an assertion is? To assert that only the West was great and amazing while dismissing 90% of the world population as nothing but those poor, uneducated, ignorant savages?

      And yes god loves everyone and all of humanity and he is so loving, but he chooses a bunch of Hebrews only to bring them the gospel and prosperity – because again it totally makes sense to bring your most important message to a small minority (no wonder Jews think they are god’s chosen people and treat the world and the Palestinians as such).

      And yes those Western powers then became colonial and imperial powers that became rich at the expense of those they exploited, colonized and whose natural resources they extracted – those poor, godless bastards and non-believers who did not get the benefit of god’s great message had the pleasure of having their populations enslaved or slaughtered and exploited in the name of such a wonderful, loving and wise god.

      I really don’t know what is worse and more idiotically ignorant: your belief that the West is advanced because god – who supposedly loves all – chose only those few people to give them the benefit of having all that advancement. Or your belief that all that prosperity did not come from exploitation of peoples – be it their own peoples whilst a feudal system or the exploitation of other peoples via colonization and imperialism.

      And at any rate, as a believer who is ignorant to facts, you are missing the order with which things happened: see god has shit to do with it. The Hebrews, as a tribe, created the Abrahamic religions and the myths around it (just as the Chinese had their own creation myths, and just as the peoples of the Indus valley had their own creation myths etc) and then spread that belief around the world as a function of Western expansion – which had nothing to do with the divine.

      People like you miss this point and really seem to think that an all knowing, omnipotent being really would pick an infinitesimal percentage of the world population to bring across his divine message.

      • #19 by silenceofmind on August 2, 2014 - 2:27 PM

        Pop,

        Not manifest destiny, just the facts.

        It is a fact that Western Civilization is the greatest civilization in human history.

        It is a fact that Christianity powered the rise of Western Civilization.

        And it is a fact that only in Christian Western Civilization did modern science develop.

        In fact, Christian Western Civilization is the only civilization in human history to that progressed past the slave and the best of burden.

        And only in Christian Western Civilization did women achieve equal standing with men.

        • #20 by popreflection on August 2, 2014 - 2:38 PM

          No it is not fact that Western Civilization is the greatest civilization in human history. That is racist, euro-centric, eliminationist garbage employed by the likes of Nazis and other ethnic purity proponents. Not to mention that it disregards why and how the West got to where it is now, which is not on its own, but through exploitation. To make such a statement assumes there is something inherently superior about Western culture and white people.

          And Christianity had nothing to do with rise of modern science. In fact, the church collaborated with the royalties and monarchs to keep the masses poor and subjugated as well as illiterate and uneducated. And they suppressed scientific research and findings, especially those that questioned humanity’s place in the universe.

          And yes Christianity powered the rise of Western Civilization, alright. Through warfare, exploitation, inquisition and crusades – just like any other intercontinental despot.

          That women achieved equal standing had also NOTHING to do with the west being Christian. Are you kidding? The church has nothing to do with giving women equal rights or seeing them as anything else but child bearers and wives. In fact, women have found their emancipation after Western countires began separating the church from politics, through the Enlightenment movement which, again, had nothing to do with Christianity.

          I don’t know where you went to school and where you got your information and through what revisionist facilities, but this kind of ethnic purity and other eliminationist garbage has no place in this discussion. But thanks for proving my point…

          • #21 by silenceofmind on August 2, 2014 - 2:42 PM

            Pop,

            By every measure Western Civilization is the greatest civilization in human history and I stated only a few of them.

            Facts are not bias.

            Facts are how we relieve ourselves from the malignant ignorance that is a byproduct of undiluted bias.

            And where else did women achieve justice but in Western Civilization?

            You are just parroting leftist nonsense instead of taking an unbiased view of the fact.

          • #22 by popreflection on August 2, 2014 - 2:52 PM

            Interesting that an ignorant tool who believes in an invisible sky god and that god made the Earth in 6 days (I know, it is a metaphor/allegorical, i know) and that a man can come back from the dead like a zombie and walk on water and turn water into wine and that the billion galaxy universe was just created for us would state that FACTS relieve us from malignant ignorance. Ha, the shameless irony.

            And again, that women achieved quasi equality in the West is NOT a function of Christianity.

          • #23 by silenceofmind on August 2, 2014 - 4:08 PM

            Pop,

            Regarding the 6 days of creation.

            That’s an easy one that was put to bed by Saint Thomas Aquinas back during the Middle Ages.

            Yes, atheists are just a little behind the times.

            Applying simple common sense, the non-atheist can reason out that since the Earth was not yet created at the time of creation, the 24 hour Earth day had not been created either.

            Therefore, the word “day” as used in the book of Genesis did not mean Earth day.

            Also, the Bible of chock full of symbols, metaphors, similes, parables and ancient idioms.

            Expecting an ancient tribe to communicate like you do, exposes the provincial and intolerant worldview of the modern atheist.

      • #24 by robinobishop on August 4, 2014 - 10:34 AM

        Christ said he and his followers would offend. So you are offended. Take a little time, a little time to think things over.

        • #25 by popreflection on August 4, 2014 - 10:59 AM

          LOL. Arguing with religious people is always such a pointless endeavor. It is like talking to a child.

          Anyway, if yoy think the things I say about religion are because I am offended, then you clearly do not understand what I have been saying.

          First of all, I am against all forms of organized religion, not just Christianity.

          Secondly, I am not offended by Christianity or religion, I am contemptuous of it because it is harmful.

          When Jesus said people would “hate” his disciples for their belief and persecute them, he meant that in the context of the ruling powers at the time and hypocrites at the temples who prayed but did not treat their fellow human beings right etc.

          Questioning whether there is a god and right out denying it and being a skeptic regarding the authenticity of the bible is not the same thing that Jesus was referring to when he said people would be offended at what he said.

          I am also not out to get Christians, nor am I particularly going after the teachings of Christ (i only wish that people who claim to be Christians also acted Christ like for once).

          So to say that “oh yeah Jesus said you would be offended at what he says” is missing the point entirely, misrepresenting everything I have said on here about religion, including Christianity and a fallacious argument. You clearly not only do not understand anything i am talking about, it appears as though you are also not quite comprehending your own Messiah. Someone once said the best argument for atheism is a 5 minute conversation with a religious person. Indeed.

          • #26 by robinobishop on August 6, 2014 - 10:11 PM

            “LOL. Arguing with religious people is always such a pointless endeavor. It is like talking to a child.”

            And who is the child? Try to be civil.

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